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About 15 months ago I started experimenting with drugs for the first time in my life (I’m in my mid 50s). The only category I find intriguing is psychedelics.
This past weekend I got out the 4-aco-dmt again, but came prepared for success. My daughter is away at school; my wife was on board to tripsit me; I did it during the day after a good night’s sleep, instead of doing it tired at night.
The compound has been kept zipped up in a dark, cool, non-humid place. However, it is now dark and clumped into large, hard granules. 30mg was measured out with a 1mg scale, and dumped into a small bottle of orange juice, which I then shook. I sipped 2/3 of the bottle (to get 20mg as before) over the course of half an hour, instead of taking 20mg in a capsule all at once.
As before, I had thermo-regulation problems … feeling hot and sweaty, then cold, then hot, etc. At about an hour closed eye visuals were strong, slowly shifting ribbons of saturated color woven together. I had an andres segovia CD on (classical guitar; not my normal fare, but it seemed suitable for the purpose). I don’t know how people manage to hike and interact at this dose — my muscles felt weak and I just wanted to lie down and nod out, so I did. My mind drifted quickly away, but the discomfort of being too hot/cold kept interrupting my trip. When I sat up and looked around — things looked perfectly normal — no “breathing”, colors looked normal, etc. Although I was entirely mentally coherent when I was open eyed, while I drifted with my eyes closed my thinking tended to be confused and incoherent.
After the first album, I put on Shibui (https://shibuimusic.bandcamp.com/album/shibui-2) and it was fantastic (recommended! Listen to all of track one to get an idea). Still, my mind never got too far away from where I was. When the album ended I sat up and said to my wife: the trip is over. It had been all of two hours. I still felt effects for four more hours, but the peak was already gone, just like that, a sudden end.
I’m not sure if the short trip was due to (a) the compound being degraded after a year, or (b) that I ramped ingestion of it instead of taking it all at once, or (c) the OJ degraded the compound before I had a chance to consume it, or (d) the first time I was blind-sided but this time knew what to expect, or (e) just the normal psychedelic roulette wheel.
Overall, I’m glad I tried it again so that my experience wasn’t defined by just the first time I did it. But I hated having wasted a day and getting so little mileage out of it. The come-up jitters and thermo-regulation issues weren’t worth the slightly more than an hour of pleasant tripping.
Part of me thinks: dump the rest, this isn’t my drug; another part says 20mg put me into a spot where I was high but confused, and the right answer is to take more and get deep enough that I’m not aware that I’m confused. However, I wouldn’t put that on my wife to tripsit me through it, so I’ll have to wait until/if I can find an experienced guide to trust.
I’ve taken this more times than I can remember (but haven’t used it in ~9 months), and I never had a problem with temperature regulation. I actually didn’t have many problems at all, aside from occasional nausea. However, I always mixed it into a shot of water and took it all at once.
I will agree it seems impossible to me how people hike etc on it. It’s so sedating, but not in the fact that it makes me sleepy (actually made it hard to sleep if I took it too close to bed time). It almost couch-locked me, similarly to how you hear indica strains of weed do to people. I was able to get up if I needed to, but it was noticeably harder, and my body just felt heavy overall.
Besides the ~ hour where you were tripping, this sounds like the first time I took actual LSD. Basically, never actually tripped, just felt uneasy. Started off with that stimulating feeling I remember from RC lysergamides I had tried, but when I got dressed to go take a walk like I usually do, I felt “off”. This ends up being ~8 hours of feeling like I need to move and then feeling like I need to sit/lay down. Eventually I was able to fall asleep for an hour and woke up back to normal. I haven’t tried it again since, because it was literally 8 hours of just feeling bad. I can see why you want to flush it.
the right answer is to take more and get deep enough that I’m not aware that I’m confused
I would strongly advise against that. The only bad experience was when I took a big jump to 65mg (Had been slowly increasing the dose by ~5mg and meant to put 45 or 50mg down and poured out 65). I figured, hey I’ve done this numerous times now and it’s always been awesome.
Well boy was that an adventure. I got in a bad thought loop that if there’s nothing after you die, what’s the point in doing all this work? Why should I finish uni if it all goes away when you die. Luckily I had my GF at the time there and she took me outside and it calmed me down.
I also am not even sure you can get to where you’re not aware of your confusion? I know it never got to that point for me and I had taken crazy high doses (think I got up to 70mg). I was never unaware of my mental state.
Somebody else said your temperature fluctuations were due to you taking multiple doses and I agree. That’s happened to me on multiple doses too. Now I just take one dose and pull my comforter over me for the first hour or two and then it (and the couch lock) goes away.
My experience is that the trippy/peak part of the trip lasts the first two hours, then after that I’m still trippy (ie no condition to drive or do math) but the closed-eye visuals are mostly gone. So it sounds like you had a normal trip, except for the multi-dosing.
And I’m with you guys: even after the couch lock goes away and I can walk around, I still don’t see how people could hike on the stuff, unless they were taking a small enough dose (10ml or so).
I just did around 20mg yesterday as well. I have done 28ish normally and have always had a great time (relatively speaking). But this lower dose felt worse to me. Probably cause my emotions were so all over the place. I started the ‘trip’ listening to Nils Frahm – You, and I was nearly crying. It was too much and felt bad. Not comforting sadness. Exceptional song though.
Felt like at that dose I got all the same negatives of the drug, and less of the positives. It makes me feel restless and couch locked at the same time. And like you said, constantly cold, even though I literally wasn’t.
My final thought was something like “I shouldn’t waste this on being miserable in a dank apartment.” If I could somehow do this on a remote Hawaiian beach that would make it 1000x better. So I’m going to keep what I have for some sort of outdoor situation like that.
Terrence McKenna said the danger in dosing non-toxic compounds (he was talking about mushrooms, but the idea generalizes) is not taking too much, but taking too little because at a lower dose you are still rooted in reality and can more easily try to “hold on” to it.
Frankly I do think there is a danger in taking too much, and I think McKenna himself eventually even reached that point, but I agree that there can also come problems from taking a dose that’s just too low if your goal is to let go.
Well I’d kinda agree with that. I also did a dose of like 50ug of 1plsd last year and it was the same story. All the negatives and less positives. But I don’t think I was left to battle with my ego as he says. Just that the desired effect didn’t really show up at all.
My 4-Aco-DMT trips have become more bland because I always trip in my apartment. I’m waiting to go out to the country for a trip maybe have a fire
It may not be your substance, but I’d hang on to it in case you want to explore it further in the future, or keep it around for others who may enjoy it more. It’s a wonderful substance, and the favorite of many, so perhaps you’re not looking in the right places.
But we’re all wired differently.
For instance, you mentioned your effects with the lysergamide analogs didn’t induce anything profound. Personally, I’m quite sensitive to the effects of lysergamides, whereas tryptamines I can handle without much issue. I’d be perfectly fine and happy hiking at that dose, whereas 200µg of LSD would definitely keep me indoors. Several people I know are the exact opposite.
Regarding the short duration; with shrooms (the drug 4-AcO-DMT mimics), the body must first break down the fungal matter before any psilocin/psilocybin is absorbed; this likely prolongs the shroom experience, and makes it a little more spread out rather than hitting ‘all at once’. Indeed, people who consume shroom tea report more intense but shorter-lived effects. 4-AcO-DMT, as an easily metabolized powder, also loses this pharmacokinetic ‘time-release’ function, and as such its duration is probably a bit shorter than it would be had you taken some fungi instead.
Diet also seems to play a big role in the duration of the 4-AcO-DMT experience. I’ve noticed that taking it when full tends to delay the onset but extend the experience (as long as 8 hours before baseline), whereas taking it on an empty stomach makes it hit harder but shorter – one time being completely baseline after just 2 hours. Other factors include intake method; I’ve noticed capsules take the longest to hit, whereas dissolving in sugary drinks (or following with a sugary snack) seems to hit very fast but be quite short. Dissolving it in a shot of vodka on a satisfied but light stomach always seemed the best way to mediate this.
It’s quite astounding how such little variables can make such a major difference when it comes to the experience one has, but psychedelics are rather unique in that aspect; unlike most drugs where effects are noted rather passively, with psychedelics, we can quite literally see the pharmacokinetics in action, and it makes a lot of difference to the overall experience and length.
‘Micro-redosing’ serotonergic psychedelics like that doesn’t really work well. Tolerance builds so quickly to the perceivable effects, the peak will be cut off and duration extended. This is likely the same reason you didn’t get great effects from the lysergamides you tried in your previous post. Your dosing was too gradual. I think it takes at least 3 weeks for your tolerance to reset, if not longer.
Or I could be completely wrong. I tried like 32mg of 4-AcO-DMT a few months ago and got almost no visuals after a long break. My batch wasn’t brown or degraded either (not like it would matter, I don’t think potency changes).
Tolerance takes about 4-7 days to reset, but some people recommend 21 days “to be safe”
4-7 days in my experience is more than enough time.
It is possible to spread out the dose of some. Think of shrooms, do you think its instantly diffused into your bloodstream when you eat them? Or will it take some time for the digestion to fully extract all the alkaloids from the mushroom material? Same concept here. Obviously there is a point after ingestion where taking more will not do much, but it isn’t instantaneous.
For instance, we took 30 mg in a capsule the first time, second time I did 40mg in a shot of water (holy fuck lol). Well I again wanted to trip with my buddy who I did the 30mg caps with. He was saying he might want more to get a stronger trip this time. I insisted that he go with 30 again, and he did, but we did a liquid solution. This time not in a shot glass, but a full glass of water we sipped over 25 minutes. I was expecting a mild trip for myself because I only did 20mg (half of my last aqueous dose) spread out much longer and not as concentrated. WELL, I shit you not, I still tripped major balls, at least as hard as I did on 30mg in a cap.
So there is at least a 25 minute window you can redose within and still achieve full effects.
Digestion is consistent yes, but not instantaneous, how could it be? A pure substance already dissolved in water will diffuse way faster than if it is trapped in dry mushrooms. Even if they are ground up and the stomach is empty, how would it not be slower still? Soaking them in something definitely helps. I am not seeing how that would not still be somewhat slower than the pure water solution though. Having done many organic extraction in a lab, I will tell you that a slurry of material takes longer to extract than if its simply a thin liquidy solvent solution, is it unreasonable to assume these physical properties would carry somewhat into the stomach as well?
What I am saying is, since there is naturally more of a gradient for absorption of mushrooms vs aqueous psilacetin, there should be some leeway with administering the aqueous dose, at least up to the rate that the shrooms are digested. What is that rate? I don’t know, I am guessing it looks similar to those charts you sent (more on that below). Also, at what rate exactly does the tolerance kick in, again we don’t know. Certainly before the next day, but probably not within mere minutes, or digesting mushrooms would be extremely hard to actually get people to trip much at all as the first bits absorbed right away would create a tolerance and the rest that needs more time to soak and digest would have barely any effects. Tolerance is only 2 weeks by the way, for being pretty knowledgable idk how you overlooked this well documented time frame. No biggy, just know, its only 2 weeks.
Oh and those charts hardly apply for aqueous shots of psilacetin. Peak after 90 minutes? No fucking way lol, try 20-40 minutes. Its fucking fast man. No need to explain that shooting it at once is a stronger peak, I get that, I am talking simply about tolerance though, and if tolerance increases as fast as you say I should have felt increasingly less from each shot as they kicked in, yet it was still fast enough to overcome a higher dose at the gel capsule administration rate.
My scale accuracy has been accounted for also. To be specific, going with the 5mg range I see commonly used for the Gemini, my dose was somewhere between 19 and 21mg, my friends would have been between 28.5 and 31.5. Even a higher margin of error would not end up being that significant, just a couple mg more total which is not even a gram of shrooms worth, more like .2-.4 grams (just an estimate, really not sure of the equivalent doses because its hard to tell due to the huge differences in how fast the dose kicks in and therefor the peak intensity felt)
I hadn’t had taken any drugs in the two months prior to this weekend’s experience. I consumed the 4-aco-dmt in the space of half an hour. I don’t think tolerance was a factor.
Yeah, I been wondering about that. My tolerance, if anything, seems to be getting lower. When I first started psychedelics last Fall, I needed ten days or so between trips to lower my tolerance. Now I can do 25ml of 4-aco-dmt on Saturday and 25ml again on Tuesday with no diminution of effects. Weird.
I get what youre saying about wasting a day. 5-12 hours of tripping (depending on the drug) can be really lame if the trip isnt anything special. I have countless trips where I get nothing out of it, and I’m too high to really function normally so I just waste a whole day.
Enter DMT. You get to go as deep as it gets, and you’re back on your feet in 15 minutes.
It sounds quite interesting. I’m in my 50s and don’t have any drug contacts, can’t be bothered to figure out the deep web, and I’m too lazy to extract it myself, so for now I just experience it vicariously from online trip reports.
It sounds like 4 aco DMT might not be your jam my man. If it was stored right, some clumping is normal. It likely did not degrade in the orange juice, but it will over time if you have any left.
Try an LSD analogue.